You are here : Home » IndyBlogs Home

 Subscribe to RSS

« The Gutter Sniper: The bold and the beautiful - Liveblogging 'Vanity Lair' | Main | Diplomatic Licence: Thanks, Roy »

Sunday, 03 February 2008

Comments

Mack, London, UK

After reading couple of articles in JC News, I found few interesting points there.
1- This is a religious movement leading by a woman.
2- Apparently, these ladies have many children. Again, according to the same articles, it seems it is one of their holy goals.
3- They cover themselves secure and avoid direct contact with other men.
4- What I found ironic is that many people of their greater communities (Orthodox and moderate Jewish) somehow look down to them. Even in extreme cases consider them as mentally extremely disturb. I don’t think it is a fair judgment.

However, it seems to me that these ladies are making a social/political statement i.e. a protestation against their larger community concept of womanhood.
Unfortunately, it maybe true, many men by instinct or whatever reason, in depth of their mind consider woman as a commodity, someone that should be kept hidden at home doing the housework, bringing up and taking care of children, etc.
Please bare in mind that there is a great difference about this movement, it is these ladies who are running the show, not their spouses.
Good luck to them.

Maria

The way I see it, a woman's body is her personal space which all too often-if not as a rule- men tend to 'occupy' with their gaze alone. It's a problem encountered by women all over the world, regardless of religious affiliations.
If a woman wishes to guard this personal and private space and make it off limits to strangers then she has a right to do so. The problem arises only where this is done forcefully and without both men and women understanding the reasons why the Abrahamic religions all called for modesty in dress for women.
In fact, the irony is that in doing so the religions impliedly acknowledge that men have a 'problem' in their ability to curb their sexual desires which makes men inherently 'weak' in some way.
The hijab/tzniut was probably never meant to be a way of oppressing women, instead a privilege bestowed on them that they have a right to protect themselves from the gaze of men. It's a 'hands off' symbol unlike any other and should be understood properly before these women have to suffer at the hands of society.
If we really want to liberate women, why don't we just let them choose what they want to wear and how.

Sarah

The above commenters make a point that these standards *might* not be considered oppressive because the women are choosing to adopt them themselves.

My concern, however, is if somehow this standard spreads and is considered to be desireable -- and even becomes the norm. Then it will be forced on ME!

While I find this idea ridiculous and abhorrent (perhaps because I was raised in a western culture?) ...the devil's adovcate in me says "What if they ARE right? What if this IS the way that our foremothers dressed? Does that mean that we must dress this way as well? Perhaps this IS what is meant by 'Sarah is in the Tent?' Ugh...what if they ARE RIGHT after all? I mean, it was hard enough for me to get rid of my jeans, cover my hair and dress by the modest standards of the mainstream Orthodox community. If this is the next step -- and if it turns out to be *legitimate* I don't know what I'll do!

Nijlgans

Beautiful, all those anti-Islamists who keep on raving about the "dominant Judeo-Christian Culture in Western Europe " will now have to accept the fact that Hijab and even Niqab ( here called burqa by a lazy Journalist ) are part of this Judeo-Christian Culture .

Abdullah Rosenberg

The similarity between the hijab of the Jews, Christians and Muslims is not surprising. It was the same Creator who ordered it.
And this command is in the Torah, the Gospel and the Quran.
Te only reason some Jews and Christian may find it strange is they have neglected their religious books for a very long time. They disobey God, so find it strange when Muslims obey God and find it stranger when people of their own religion try to obey God.
Islam is just a renewal of what was sent to Moses and Jesus; all those who claim to follow Moses and Jesus Must follow Prophet Mohummad pbh as Prophet Mohummed is the Prophet of this time.

Rebecca

As a modern orthodox Jewish woman with many Muslim friends, I agree more with the comments then with the article. If women WANT to cover to respect their modesty, why is the author so troubled by this? it is their body, their choice. nobody is forcing them or subjugating them. let me ask...I am sure these women feel even liberated.

To paraphrase a good friend: In modern culture the ideal is for a woman to be attracting (external)in G-d based societies the ideal is to be attractive (internal, spiritual)

lamar

i believe that every one has the right to do any thing he like's without hurting others or forcing others to do the same thing if these women are believing in the things they are trying to do and they didn't force any other womens to do the same thing , then it's there right to practise these believes and they don't need to justify that....

Jerome Taylor

"Why is the author so troubled by this?"

Rebecca, ultimately I'm not troubled by this for the moment as the women participating in this type of dress very much seem to be doing so of their own accord - and why shouldn't they if that's their wish?

Equally I have no problem with any form of hijab - including niqab, jilbab and even burqa - as long as it is the express desire of the wearer and not pressure from someone else or society in general.

But at the same time I think there is a fine line to tread. Often extreme or radical interpretations of religious clothing can lead to a great deal of isolation of the wearer from mainstream society. Now for some that may be the express intention of the wearer but it's not always and I think where possible it's probably best avoided.

Things like hijab and other forms of religiously inspired sartorial modesty should enable a woman to integrate and interact with the wider community more, not less. Many of the young Muslims I speak to near where I live say they chose to wear a headscarf because it enables them to walk and talk outside their homes without hassle.

But we shouln't be blind to the fact that often extreme forms of modest clothing inspired by religion can lead to the total isolation of the wearer from mainstream scoiety and when that happens I do think that's a shame.

mother in israel

You can find a summary/translation of the Maariv article on my blog. Read it and then tell us whether or not you find this disturbing.

hyper-tzniut
http://mominisrael.blogspot.com/search/label/hyper-tzniut

Jewishsoulsearch.com

I don't believe this is a "movement". I think it will die out and the women will wake up and wonder what they had in mind when they started this whole thing.

Sarah

You may dismiss these people as crazy extremists, but it in my experience it does not take long for extreme actions like this to drift into becoming "unnecessary but laudable" and then "not necessary but preferable" and then to the norm and "mandatory." (Case in point, it was women who requested that Egged buses be seperated by gender, with women riding in the back -- but is men who have taken to enforcing it -- with abusive words and even their fists on a few occasions -- for any women who do not comply) My friend Heshy at frumsatire.com calls the phenomena "The Chumra-Of-The-Month-Club" Tell me, is Israel on the path to becoming "Talmudistan?"

666

..more situations where free prescription of MDMA/Exstacy would be indicated. Sad sad little manikin. Essentially patriarchal abuse whether a female individual is 'directing' the trip or otherwise. One thing is real - fertility. Its biologically natural. Why hide it? Why be ashamed of it. Its reality regardless of mans laws and rules.

Having said that I do know a little about Islamic society...and the communal vibrations...energy that you get with that religious senario in Morrocco....(regardless of seemingling inane rules, little bonnets for women etc etc) impressive and truely real and cosmic. Something that the Koran dissectors on the interent no absolutely nothjing about, and would no doubt, have huge fear and paranoia barriers to transcend before they could walk freely and experience Morroccan street reality.

The anti 'idolity' thing must stop though. This is facsism.

However they dress, the Isrealis are totally out of order towards the indigenous people of that area - the Palestinians.

Jah Bless ;)

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment