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Tuesday, 12 February 2008

Comments

Fiona Duncan

Cnut didn't unite Britain -and Henry 1V didn't rule Britain. When oh when will writers learn to differentiate between England and Britain....but what can you expect from an article with that headline?

carin

It's Winder's fault, not Jerome's, but that's the trouble with the book - it is a great read but it's let down by some basic strange history. The whole Celt section for a start is rather suspect.

ivan jones

excellent; and after just one chapter too! This blogg will obviously run and run, chapter by chapter

Ed R

FAO Fiona Duncan

On the subject of confusing 'England' with 'Britain', I (charitably?) assume that either Robert Winder or Jerome Taylor has fallen into the trap of writing 'Britain' when he means 'England' NOT because of some anti-Scot agenda, but because the area that we now know as 'England' is almost exactly the area that the Romans knew as 'Britannia'.

Still, I agree that it is a shame that it crept in to an article written to show the counter-factuality of the concept of some 'pure blooded' 'race' called 'the English'.

D whitts

one skull of an African girl is hardly overwhelming evidence that we've always been a multi-racial melting pot. In view of ignorant comments like this from the politically correct brigade trying to rewrite history let's put the significance of post war immigration into perspective. In Southampton prior to the second world war there was just one single black person living in the whole town.

John G

This is pure fiction. For an introduction to a scientifically based pre-history of Britain, read
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7817

Winder has his own reasons for suggesting that the British are already an ethnic soup, however, the exact opposite is the case.

Aaron Judd Huel

Is it too much to expect that somebody commenting on a book in an important national newspaper should have read it first?

Leroy

"The Roman armies that invaded Britain brought some of the first non-white faces to our shores. Their armies may have been controlled by Rome but were made up of significant numbers of North Africans and people from what is now the Middle East."

Significant numbers? Ridiculous. Yes, here and there, we would see Berber, Grecian, and other Northern Africans, and some Semites. But they would serve Rome overwhelmingly in their own lands, not in Britain.

Leroy, The Netherlands

Edwin

So, the Celts only arrived in 100 BC did they? Piffle! British natives were trading (tin) with the Phoenicians 5000 years ago! Who were they then? Dinosaurs?

Also the word 'Britain' (I'm sure) comes from an old Welsh word - (NOT a Roman name for a british tribe) - this Celtic language was what Britons spoke before the emergence of Old English in 450AD.

The central flaw of this book - and review - is the insistence that Britain or England are not really countries with any united history or genetic/ethnic unity - so lets invite everyone in Africa and Asia to come here - because one African skull was found in a village graveyard!!! This is all a favourite scam of PC muppets - much as they claim historic figures (Cleopatra, Septimus Africanus, Queen Caroline) were black when they most definitely were not! All a product of the racist African american race relations industry.

If you want, you can argue that ALL countries are made up of incomers - as Mankind evolved in the Rift valley Kenya, so we are all Kenyan immigrants. But if that is your argument, you have to be consistent - all natives of all countries of the world are incomers then, including those in african and asian countries. But where does such waffle get us? More compulsory lessons on Mary flipping Seacole?

Spurious and specious codswallop!

LMO

The first immigrant arrived 25,000 years ago? Who classed him as an immigrant then?He was surely a settler,an original inhabitant.The Beaker people arrived in the "UK".My God ,the UK is older than I thought.What an idiotic book and reviewer.The lastest DNA evidence points to the fact that the vast majority of the English are descended from the first 3,00 inhabitants of this island.Science is catching up with the Lefty multiculturists who re-write history to push the social engineering politics that are failing and fragmenting the nation.

JumptUp

The picture Winder paints is of a Britain as varied and as ethnically mixed as ever...

Not the picture he paints, the lie he tells. If England has always been "varied" and "ethnically mixed", why do liberals like Winder and Taylor drool so lovingly over mass immigration? What difference could it possibly make to a "mongrel" nation? And what on earth does "mongrel" mean when all human beings are identical under the skin anyway?

The contradictions of their own fatuous rhetoric reveals the truth: that England had always been overwhelmingly populated by northern Europeans until the lunacy of mass immigration began in the 20C. And its lunacy will become apparent even to the Independent very shortly.

Andy

Why is it that genuine concerns on immigration is classed as hysteria....immigration is the number one concern of many English people it is concern NOT hysteria. How these pro immigrationists like to exagerate either that or call you a racist for mentioning the negative effects of immigration.

The British of today are a multi racial multi cultural mongral people (not a nation) with no identity. British is a mixture of many nationalities who follow different cultures etc....diverse, divided and rapidly failing to integrate.

The English however are an identifiable nationality, members of the European racial group, We are only a mongral nation when we allow the PC liberals to erode our nation in the way they have done with British identity.
If you dont look it, talk it (in a recogniseable English accent) and think it... then you are not English.

Joseph

The writer uses the expression "our island", but his basic argument is that it is anybody's - or at least that the English have no special claim to their part of it. The English are, on this theory, a non-nation cut off from the their true homelands. They have no common history, or heritage, traditions or culture. After all, if they had all these things, all this mongrel stuff would by-the-by. And if we have all these things it does not follow that anyone can be English simply by arriving here with an intention to settle.

Ultimately, there is just a childish train of reason. England was created by migration, so it should be entirely open to further migration. Of course, England as mainly created by invasions (the Roman, the Anglo-Saxon and the Norman.) On those precedents, and with similarly facile reasoning, doubtless the writer thinks we have done wrong by resisting subsequent invasions.

Stephen Jones

This is a pretty awful article. I doubt if the books any better from what has been suggested.

On the other hand this link

This is pure fiction. For an introduction to a scientifically based pre-history of Britain, read
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7817

refers to a highly contentious and generally considered discredited theory by Oppenheimer. The historical linguistics in the book is considered pseudo-junk; how good the genetics are is debateable. Here are a couple of attacks on it.
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004346.html
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004296.html
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004276.html

There is debate as to how much of the language change in England from Celtic to Germanic was the result of demographic replacement, and how much the result of language replacement. Colin Renfrew argues, somewhat convincingly, for the latter, and the genetic evidence seems to agree, though there are considerable disagreements as to the methodology of the latter.

The matter is of academic interest for the UK but is of paramount political importance in the Indian sub-continent.

Jason

This is a short blog comment and not an article. I enjoyed the book which goes on to talk about immigrants up to the present day that have contributed a lot to Britain. It brilliantly counters the common perception of immigrants as drains on society.

Harry A

On reading "a few of the more unusual facts" above, I was reminded about those funny media reports on the mixed up views of history that school kids get, because they lack a chronology; D-Day was in 1066 (and all that).

Mr. Say

Re OP:
It's a shame that this misreading of history has been confabulated to contextualise legitimate and reasonable concerns about unsustainable rates of immigration as racist.

Laban

I think I get the point of the book and this article.

There were North Africans in the Roman armies guarding Hadrians Wall 1900 years ago.

Therefore any amount of (say) African immigration now is acceptable. And anyone who disagrees is a racist.

The Roman Army was multiracial but monocultural, although soldiers were allowed to worship their particular gods. Hence the shrines to Middle Eastern deities like Mithras. The Romans found more security by having their foreign mercenaries serve a long way from their homelands.

But the corollary - that because there were British soldiers on the Mesopotamian frontiers 1800 years back, therefore the British Army in Iraq is acceptable now - that might prove too much for you.


Logan McGeary

Well I'm really chuffed for you all. Try 'Staying Power' by Peter Fryer for more earth shattering revelations.

Guessedworker

Logan,

I would like to be able to offer you the rejoinder of an opus titled, "They never asked". Sadly, the liberal world demonises expressions of English ethnic interests as "racist", "Nazi", "fascist" etc. "British" Sub-Safs like you, however, are invited to follow your instincts freely.

The difference, of course, is the real racism - which is anti-English.

Like Phillip Legrand, Robert Winder is merely feeding reassurance to liberals anxious that replacing Europe's native peoples with Bantus, Sub-cons, Arabs, Han Chinese and the rest isn't producing La-La's longed-for paradise.

Why should it?

Fundamentally, race-replacement is genocide, so it isn't unnatural for liberals to feel a tad uncomfortable about supporting it so fervently. But Winder understands them. In reality he is commending aggressivity on the Englishman's living space. So he's peddling anti-English racism. But he does it safe in the knowledge that, according to liberal dictate, no such animal exists.

Hypocrisy, thy name is liberal.

hellen

Due to the current US presidential election the racist debate thet peoPle woulD like to ignoRE is back. britons shoulD not be pointing fingers at the racisT america, they shoulD look ar racism in britain, not complicated racism but everyday racism. I was recently kicked out of a fashionable knights bridge restorant, ZUMA and the motive was racism,because, no reason was given,and I had seen the manager who thuggishly ushered me out, after first checking i wasnt with any white friends, do it again to two other black people a few weeks earlier. The guy had been standing intimidatingly behind me for an hour, this is very common in many restaurants and barsand social places. I do not know whether he assumed i was athief or a drugdealer. Its very sad because unlike in a work situation, icannot have this manager dealt with by the law. The evidence is clear that multiethic/cultural london is a farce. we are living in polarised situations, whereby the black and asian people stick to their own because of this dicrimaination. and this will only further hatred and suspicion.

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Alfred

England was created by the Anglo-Saxons, who were an ethnic group (made up of a few Germanic tribes) and the original English. If there was no mass migration of Anglo-Saxons the English language could not have been spread to the native Britons (''Welsh''). The Anglo-Saxons were illiterate and didn't have adequate schooling and thus the idea that the English are primarily decended from Britons who adopted English language and culture is rather absurd. The view that there was no mass migration of Anglo-Saxons was pushed forward by British nationalists/racists who want the people of England to be apart from the people of the continent. In other words it was created so English Britishist can say "Our ancesters were here first". They weren't. Our primary ancesters were living in Denmark, the Low Countries and Germany whilst another people occupied the lands of Britain.

The Anglo-Saxons were immigrants which would make the English descendants of immigrants. I do not agree with much immigration due to over-crowding, however, I have nothing against any immigrant who manages to come here. I do not think that we should measure cultures by genetics now; I know many people of Indian descend who I would say are more English than those British nationalists who claim they are English.

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