Not only muslim having more chilren but also islam is the first growing religion. It is growing mainly due to the western agression and propaganda against islam.

You have your opinion and we have ours.
Im sure a majority do label us racist and I have heard the filth from peoples mouths so dont say it isnt so.

Unknown - Are you seriously trying to say it was our fault that suicide bombers went on a plane or a train and blew up 100's and 1000's of people?
You have to be kidding!!
No one is saying that all muslims are like that but seriously the ones that are in the public view are the ones giving you a bad name so if i were you I would talk to them not tell us to stop hating - because as long as they are like that the world is a sad sad place to live in!

Faith is, like everything else, an evolutionarily selected function in the human brain. It is there because it offers fitness gain - the same reason that every sociobiological behaviour - indeed every last human molecule - is there.

Faith clothes its purpose in a powerful and irrational committment. But does not exclude its products, such as Islam, from serving the purpose of Darwinian group competition - in Islam's case, the aggression of, largely, North African, Sub-Saharan and South Asian peoples on European living space.

Ultimately, the Islam in Europe issue is one of immigration and resource competition in which the aggrieved European groups are disqualified by the own rulers from defending their natural rights and interests.

It's about race and the rights of the victim group - not about whose fairy in the sky has the best book of words.

There are many who have converted from catholicism and joined the muslim faith and some have chosen to abandon the belief of God while others have converted to other religions. These people have not asked the catholic church to remove their names from the catholic list. Now the catholic church is including those who are no longer catholics in their statistics. Their statistical claim is far, far from Near accurate

First of all the Christians are the people closest to the muslims in faith, at least this is what the Quran says.We muslims believe that Jesus was indeed born of virgin mary.He was a prophet who was given the Gospel( arabic: ingeel) by God. We also believe that he was not killed on the cross but God lifted him to heaven in flesh and blood and he will be sent back to this world , he will lead the muslims in prayer and in war and will establish a just society.

Secondly it is not the quantity but the quality that matters, vatican says there are 2.1 billion Christins about 1/3 of the world population. How many of them follow Christ's teachings. How many of them will offer the other cheek if slapped on one? Did Jesus ever ask anyone to worship the statue of his or that of his mother? Did he ever say that he is god?

Thirdly Prophet Mohamed said " He is not a muslim who does not wish for his brother , what he wishes for himself"
Now how many of the so called "Muslims" will pass this test? just being born in a muslim family or having a arabic name does not make one a muslim, How many muslims do we have who follow islam in the true spirit, and are ready to live and die for it?

finally the issue of suicide bombers, the Israeli rockets that destroy Palestinian homes come from the pockets of Americans. The US Military aid to Israel is more than the aid given to the entire continent of Africa! So if the world is ready to arm Palestinians with F-16's and other advanced weapons which the Israelis have, then there will be no need for palestinians to use suicide attacks.

Americans dropped 3000 bombs on Baghdad in the first night of Shock and awe campaign , no Christian in this world called it an anti Christian act, nobody called in an act of terror, where as if a Muslim blasts one single bomb in any western capital than it is terrorism.
So it goes like this ,If Christians and Jews kill hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan then it is called war and if Muslims kill Christians in London or new york then it is called terror, this is totally unfair and unacceptable.
Shock +Awe =Terror, war is terror. The colour of blood is red whether it is Christian blood flowing in london or Afghan blood flowing in Kandahar. The tears which a orphan child sheds in Baghdad or New York do not differ from each other.

Why have some comments been deleted???

very interesting..... cant handle the truth???

to the stupid bigoted comments, some from Christians , answer this

Are all Christians pedophiles/Does Christianity teach pedophilia because priests molests children in churches????

where is the christian anger, why are we not seeing Christians protesting in the streets against this???

@ Joanna
Dear Sister, It is always a pleasure to hear some voices of sanity in the din of madness. It is perhaps because of people like you that the world can hope for a better future.

The amount of hatred which is being propagated against Islam, in Europe makes me feel that the next holocaust in Europe will be against Muslims.One holocaust has already taken place against Muslims during the inquisition of Spain .The extent to which the fear of terrorism is being drilled into the hearts and minds of Europeans by their politicians and media is shocking. It is a matter of shame and misfortune for us Muslims that some of our misguided brothers have added fuel to the fire by their inhuman and anti-Islamic actions.
The right wing politicians all over Europe are busy scaring their people that the monster of Islam is knocking on their doors, and the only way to save the west from this monster is to vote for them.

The laws made by these politicians are against the European ideals of freedom, fraternity and equality. It is legal to walk topless on a ramp of a fashion show in Paris , but it is illegal for a Muslim girl to wear a head scarf and enter a public place !
In Athens which is the capital of Greece there are 200,000 Muslims but they are not being allowed to build a single Mosque. In Sweden it is legal to build a strip bar but it is illegal for a mosque to have a Minaret ! Similarly in many cities in Greece it is illegal for Muslims to bury their dead ! They have to take the dead bodies either outside Greece or to the region of Thrace where burying a dead Muslim is not a crime.

Such discriminatory laws look more like the laws of some despotic dictatorship or outdated monarchy of the Muslim world, they do not look like the laws from a region which is supposed to be a beacon of freedom and democracy for the millions who are still longing for freedom.

I have studied for 12 years in a school run by catholic nuns.It is because of this that I have a fairly good understanding of the Christian faith. The Christians whom I knew, the nuns of the convent, were very different from which I see in the Northern League of Italy or the British Nationalist Party in UK.

I hope and I pray that the people of Europe will be able to see how they are being scared to vote for the right wing parties, at the same time I pray that there are no more attacks in Europe, I urge all Muslims to realize that our struggle against the "WAR CARTEL" is a war of hearts and minds and any attempts to win it by bombs and bullets are useless and counter productive.

Also, islam and christianity are both cooking the books here. They include ALL people born in muslim or christian families - so forced to be so by their parents. (NO child is born a muslim or a christian). Many leave their religions, and most just go along with it for cultural and family and business reasons - you have to be a muslim in most muslims countries if you want to succeed (just like most people were communist under communism). Like sheep, in other words.

The true number is about 100 000 of each - so outnumbered by those who think religions are nonsense and just conform because it's easier.

Also, most muslims who are killed are killed by muslims and most christians who are killed are killed by christians, something which the tubthumpers here seem to have forgotten (if they ever remembered)... Perhaps they can all remember this: no-one was ever killed in the name of atheism (the quasi-religions of communism/fascism etc yes - but not atheism).

I would agree with many christians however that the traditionalist literalist jihadist islamofascism we are suffering now is a big threat to our way of life and must be resisted by everyone. We should make no concessions to these people - that is what cause the problem in the first place.

Joanna

What on earth do you mean by 'rather unpleasant Dawkinsian types' - what a bigot you are!!! Probably American right? Or evangelical? Or african?

Being an atheist simply means thinking for oneself that there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of god, that religion was man-made and that faith is therefore irrational and not based on any evidence.

It is by REJECTING the totalitarianism of religious oppression that society has evolved - and sceince has disproved most of what religious people believed in 200 years ago. NOT by embracing a fairy tale.

We live in an age where the rational have to fight the religious maniacs in the world. That is not overzealous - that is common sense and the duty of any decent person. (By the way no atheist I know wants to stop anyone worshipping an imaginery friend or destroy churches or mosques etc - and the cultural achievements of humanity, which just happen to have been created in religious times when people were ignorant of science, are appreciated by atheists too y'know).

Just think on this: statistically, the more religious you are in this world, the lower life expectancy you have and the poorer you are - that is largely a result of over-breeding which is encouraged by partisan religious maniacs, living in luxury in Rome and the Middle East. SHAME!

SYED - in the muslim world ity is illegal to be a democrat and atheist a christian or a jew - muslims have it SO esay in Europe. Unfortunatley, due to pakistani extremists teaching islamofascim, we have many muslims in europe who want to destroy the west. It is THEY who want a holocaust - any muslim in europe has equal rights to anyone else. This courtesy, based on civilsed values, exists nowhere in the arab world. (Greece is a bad example matey - as Greeks were massacred by muslim Turks and 100s of thousands were forced to flee Turkey in the 1920s). Muslims are NOT victims here os any 'holocaust'; the opposite is true - certain muslims are promoting the same kind of anti-semitic, bigoted, intolerant, backwards, anti-science, totalitarianism that we fought in europe in world war two. Get real matey.

Joanna

Perhaps you have to learn to be more tolerant of those who expose your fairytale for what it is.

Atheism is nothing more than the belief that god does not exist. There is no 'then...', no follow on. There is a long history of non-belief too (Epicurus, Lucretius, Marcus Aurelius and many more, incl all those billions who just go along with religions coz they're conformists).

Atheists who believe in pluralism (like me) accept that you have the right to believe any old junk you want - but do not get angry when we expose your faith as the product of learned imagination with no basis in evidence. You need to read some history, for sure. What are you so afraid of when people criticise your religion? Is your god so weak that an atheist may hurt his feelings by denying his existence? Is he going to burst into tears and go on Jeremy Kyle? Good grief...

Yes, religious people can do good things - but most bad things in the world are, and always have been, caused by people's interpretation of their religions. Keep your religion personal - out of public life and education and the law and that'll be fine.

If religious people like you were not so arrogant - attempting to shut up and bully your critics all the time - and if some religiuous people were not trying to brainwash and abuse our children, claim special treatment, destroy human rights and overpopulate the world to destruction, as well as killing and persecuting scientists and atheists, then we atheists may like you more. We have to fight this envangelical and islamist tide tsunami tide of lies that is sweeping over the civilised world these days. It is the rejection of religion that created the modern world and human rights and democracy - and science has disproved almost everything christians beleived in 200 years ago, so what's left?

I do not care if you are tired of atheists telling the truth. What are you moaning about? - you are free to worship your gods and ghouls - and on public money too! You should be thanking atheists for their generosity and tolerance actually. Or we might ask for our money back...

Religious people would make the world a better place if they all stopped having children. Perhaps every christian and muslim could be sterilised for the sake of humanity's future?

Joanna: I'll take your word for it that Dawkins did use these adjectives in describing some believers, but I'm fairly sure he will not have meant 'all' believers as you suggest. Many Christians are deserving of these insults, just as many are not. Ted Haggard (the American Evangelical Preacher) to use as an example, would be deserving of all these insults. I will conceed that Dawkins and other Atheists (myself included) can often get a bit carried away, but this is because we are annoyed by what people will choose to believe over reason or evidence-based fact.

Everyone on this blog has their own 'agenda' - yours I presume is to promote inter-faith harmony and better understanding of religion as being a force for good. My argument is that you do not need to have a faith to be moral.

Kenny: thanks for being reasonable. Actually, I think Dawkins makes it plain he doesn’t see any difference between various “shades” of believer (from fundamentalist to moderate) and believes us all to be pretty much on the wrong side of the tracks, but never mind.

Eddie: I’m not the hysterical one here. I did not say that crime in the UK is caused by people’s lack of religious belief. I said that the things I mentioned (rape, murder, theft, etc) were extremely unlikely to happen as a direct result of religious belief (which was what you implied when you said “most bad things in the world are, and always have been, caused by people's interpretation of their religions”). There is a difference. We’ve established that bad things happen to people whether they are religious or not – why? I would venture to say that most bad things of the type described earlier – most of the things you see on Crimewatch - happen because people are hurt, in desperate need, and in the heat of the moment think only of themselves. The important thing is how to minimise these sorts of thing from happening, and nobody would argue over that. How do you do that? Well, not by mocking and goading others, for a start. So as for not needing a faith to be moral, I agree that anyone who is working away on finding people jobs, counselling people, reducing poverty, feeding people, rehabilitating people, and generally leaving people feeling uplifted rather than depressed is doing a pretty good job, whether they are Christian, Muslim, or atheist, and we desperately need more of that.

@ Eddie

Dear among other things you mentioned this "in the muslim world it is illegal to be a democrat".
The truth is that the love for democracy in the Islamic world which the west expresses so passionately is just a farce. The west has always supported despots and dictators against the people in the middle east. US talks about democracy in Iran but never about democracy in Egypt because Hosni Mubarak follows commands from the White House. The west will never want democracy in Saudi Arabia Or Kuwait because a democratic goverment will not allow the OIL corporations to plunder the Arab oil as they are doing now. A democratic government will nationalize the oil wealth as the Hugo Chavez and Eva morales or Lula D Silva have done in Latin America. Nor will a Democratically elected Arab government remain silent over the persecution of Palestinians, the jewish lobby in Washington will never allow the Arab oil wealth to fall in hands of a government that represents the masses.
When ever Democracy has chosen a party that refuses to toe the American line , it has been crushed by the west.
When ever Turkey elects a party that has an agenda not acceptable to US. The CIA gets the democraticaly elected government thrown away by the turkish military.
Another recent example is HAMAS , they won a election by a huge margin , but the entire world turned against them and ensured that they do not succeed.

Dear Eddie you also talked about "Islamofacism being spread By Pakistanis", Let me remind you that the west has always been cosy with the Pakistani dictators, The madarsas in Pakistan which brainwash poor Muslim kids were the idea of the west to generate a army of fanatics to fight against the soviets, just Google "Charlie Wilson" to know more. After the Cold war was over those poison factories still kept on operating, and the Saudis still keep on financing them , in order to Justify their illogical rule over Arabia.

How close UK is to the dictators is clear from the following example an arms deal named "AL YAMAMAH" was signed between UK and Saudi Arabia. The deal was about the sale of fighter aircraft at exorbitantly overpriced rate Saudi Arabia, lot of money changed hands , the British company acted like pimps and supplied teenage British girls to the Saudi Royal in exchange for the deal. When the word got out and the Serious Fraud Office wanted to investigate the case, the UK government Chose the Lust for money over their duty to being Just and honest to their people, and the investigation was blocked.
The west befriends the dictators and alienates the millions on the street. It is high time that the west gives up the policy of supporting the Despots of the Islamic world.
While we are debating this the Muslim brotherhood members in Egypt are being arbitrarily arrested and their English language website "ikhwanweb" has been blocked in Egypt and its editor is behind bars, but to the US government which is under the tight grip of Israeli lobby, Hosni Mubarak is very good man because he has surrendered his foreign policy to US, and US will support even his son GAMAL who is being groomed to be his successor

Joanna:

You say: "I did not say that crime in the UK is caused by people’s lack of religious belief. I said that the things I mentioned (rape, murder, theft, etc) were extremely unlikely to happen as a direct result of religious belief".

Really? There are plenty of people internationally raping and murdering and stealing as a direct result of their religious faith (the prison population is more religious than the general population and is 10% muslim actually).

We in europe have advanced democracy and pluralism - precisely because the power of the church (and the monarch) has been transferred to the people over centuries. I really do think that, like many religious people, you are a wolf in sheep's clothing - attempting to come over all reasonable and moderate but, at heart, refusing to believe that religion is at the heart of most conflicts in the world, and getting cross if an atheist states their opinion. It is a very common technique used by many religious types: the 'our religion is a religion of peace' stuff... I do not buy it.

People like Dawkins are rationalists - and religion is utterly irrational in faith terms (though rational for tribal identity in darwinian terms like any belief system). Why do you hate him for that? He is not advocating your murder or anything, and nor is Pullman? Why get so annoyed? Is it evidence you hate, or science - which has disproved so much of religion in the last 200 years.

Kenny:

I think if you look at the posts on here (and elsewhere) you'll find a lot of anger and frustration from religious people thrusting their opinion down others' throats and claiming superiority because of what their parents brainwashed them with. This is what atheists are - and should be - angry, even aggressive against such nonsense. The god squad did start it, after all. And anyway, quite frankly, who made you the headmaster? Strong opinions delivered forecefully are not a bad thing IMHO. Robust debate is not allowed in religious states - they are here.

SYED:
We could argue about politics all day - superpowers behave like superpowers, like mohammed when he forced others to be muslims on pain of death and 'liberated' them of their money and women. The thing is that Islamism - the literalist, traditionalist, pakistani version of islam is a danger to this country and democracy; there is no democratic islamic state in the world; islam has stood still since the 11th century; israel is the only democracy in the middle east (despite faults); and the british treat you one hell of a lot better than muslims would ever treat me. OK? Essentially, islam is so bankrupt of ideas and so insecure by the failure of muslim cultures (the modern world is a european invention) so muslims rush into the arms of islamofascism as a comfort blanket for their own insecurity. Of course, there are many interpretations of islam - not just the 'our koran is the exact word of allah' literalist, anti-apostate, anti-infidel, anti-democratic type. Look at malaysia or turkey - or the arabic age of 1000 years ago when muslims could separate their faith from science. Now, we have fools of muslim 'scientists' in pakistan who spend their timing working out the temperature of hell and trying to 'prove' the world is a few thousand years old and evolution is a lie. It is the duty of everyone to stop those who are not democratic being elected and then abolishing democracy (as in turkey).

In short, I am never going to agree with religion; and religious types are never going to agree with atheism. The difference is that I do not want to execute religious people or stop them from worshipping their sky-gods or expressing their opinion, so long as they are not inciting hatred, murder or violence (a religious tradition that is alive and well, it seems).

Brigitta: exactly, so even in a world wiped clean of religion, as in John Lennon's song, we'd still be arguing amongst our own groups, our tribes. It's not religion that's the problem here. To repeat Eddie's earlier argument, if there were two people left on earth, one atheist and one Christian, they'd be arguing too. (The atheist would probably start the argument - as did Dawkins by publishing his book of outraged invective, and (let's not forget) earning a tidy packet and laughing all the way to the bank in the process.)

Kenny: It was all Muslims that Dawkins tarred with the same brush, by saying there was no such thing as moderate Islam. He may be intelligent, but there are plenty of intelligent Christians and Muslims out there too. Atheists don't have the monopoly on intelligence.

Eddie: I don't hate Dawkins and Pullman - the Dark Materials book was a brilliantly original idea. What irked me more was the way Pullman made it clear he was attacking the Catholic church but then suddenly did a U-turn when he realized his profits would plummet if the film didn't open in the States. But I'll concede you the fact that much of what goes on in the Middle East in the name of religion is worse than mere mud-slinging and verbal attacks. And to hint as George Bush did that the Iraqi invasion was somehow justified in religious terms does us all no good at all and makes those of us who are believers ashamed of such a connection. But as Kenny said there are good people and bad people and religion - in most cases, certainly in the UK - has nothing to do with it. The things you see on Crimewatch - it is not religious beliefs making the average British criminal go out and rob. It's material poverty and lack of opportunities. Of course you generalise in your last point - the vast majority of religious people do not want to execute anyone who disagrees with them, although from your earlier comments you were quite happy to suggest sterilisation for those who didn't agree with your point of view. Finally, can you give me a list of what science has disproved of religion in the past 200 years. I'm sure I'll agree with your list, but I want to see what kind of things you mean as you've mentioned this a couple of times.

Joanna

There are no 'population controllers' and that is the problem. (I direct you here to the optimum population trust website). The population is now 6.7 million (in the 60s it was 3.5 million). In 3o years it'll be 12 million. The reason for food shortages, famines, wars, pollution, extinctions, islamic terrorism, african problems, south american problems are ALL because of over-population. In the past disease sorted it out and kept things in balance. Now there is nothing. The fact is, many if not most babies should never have been born in the first place. Compassion would be sorting this problem out, not crying because the little babies are starving in the third world or saving their lives: harsh but true.

You have got it the wrong way round: it is those who reject learned imagination and who believe in scientific enquiring who state that they do not know all the answers and will change their view as evidence comes up; religious types by contrast are utterly sure that they are right and everyone else is wrong (though without any evidence to back it up). You're all topsy-turvey here.

You are also wrong to try and divide the world into silly shallow materialist people (the non-religious) and those who live deeper more meaningful more compassionate useful lives. And you call atheists arrogant!!!!!! There are plenty of materialistic christians and muslims - religion is all about money and power and always has been (look at Rome) - and plenty of non-materialist atheists.

You may be compassionate Joanna - but many religious people are not, and many atheists are. It has NOTHING to do with religion - and your definition of christianity and what it means is just your interpretation actually. There are thousands of interpretations.

And you might have learned science in a rational way at school - but many do not. Intelligent design is to evolution what the stork is to sex, in the baby making process. And it is being taught as fact all over the world and in the UK!

200 or more years ago you Joanna would have been persecuted for believing in and expressing such pro-science sentiments (democracy was a mortal sin in the catholic church until 1848ish - but they have a dodgy get-out clause called 'divine revelation' which means they can change their mind at any time - or 'whoops, sorry about the torture and executions and stuff, but I the pope now accept the earth goes round the sun'). Please read some history.

Questioning is most certainly NOT encouraged in the more hard-line churches - and they are full of bigoted nasty bullies who love power and wealth - as are mosques.

If religious people stopped trying to claim special treatment and assuming they should be immune from criticism then it is the duty of every democrat and atheist and rationalist to shout at them that they do not have the right not to be offended and they do not have the right to have any power in the UK.

Eddie: Am I not evidence in front of you that, for example, not all religious believers are the wild extremist nutters who think they have all the answers? You can't see me, but you can see my words on this blog - is that not evidence? I have just told you that many religious people know they don't have all the answers, and yet you refuse to allow this evidence to affect your view of religious people as a blanket group, reiterate what you said before and tell me I've most certainly got it wrong and I'm topsy-turvy. That's not very scientific. I'm listening to your point of view and modifying my argument accordingly, but you seem to be absolutely certain that you are right and I am wrong - and I can't see what makes you any different to one of those religious nutters out there we both take issue with.

you two Eddie and Joanna should bloody well stop this now - you are both mad. You have both shown us here that whether you are religious or an atheist it is all a matter of mind and ego going on here - it is just crazy, you could argue till the end of the world and both of you would never be RIGHT. You are just arguig out your gigantic intelligent intellectual egos. The next step could be war if we weren't protected by the internet.

Oh Eddie, why don't you go to Hyde Park Corner; I'm sure you'd have a captive audience....or sign up for a late degree in Religious Studies (many atheists find it interesting becasue you can have lots of arguments/debates with the fanatics who usually take it) or Philosophy...or get a job

guess what I think WE WILL live to see the 22nd century - I see life positively and I have faith in the human race in spite of the dark and the light of the human condition and you have just exposed yourself quite nicely which was hidden through your so called 'debate' by being a nasty silly man who obviously hates humanity and can see nothing but doom and gloom. Get off your arse and go and help the human race with deeds instead of spouting off your diatribe and make sure YOUR life is worth living never mind the others that you look down on. You've got a problem mate, look at it, and be thankful for interent blogs that you get a mirror to YOUR OWN condition and do something about it.

Len: What happened to free speech? I'm sure Eddie and I would not go to war as we'd both like to think we're enlightened and civilized representatives of each point of view, but we'd probably go through several rounds of drinks in the pub. Would you buy the virtual drinks, Len? Debating is a healthy and eye-opening thing for all involved and we should really do more of it - maybe learn the skill at school like they do in America.

Eddie: actually, there is evidence, and a fair bit of it, to support that a charismatic character named Jesus lived, taught, and was killed in the Middle East a couple of thousand years ago - even if nothing else (miracles, coming back to life, etc) can actually be scientifically proven. So it's not as if there's no evidence for anything at all.

Kenny: My point to Eddie also applies here. Of course there are contradictions and myths and what we would judge by today's standards as pretty awful happenings in the Bible. That's because we're dragging the Old Testament (a much earlier assortment of stories) along with us and tacking on assorted letters from early apostles on at the end. The only essential parts are the Gospels which tell the story of Jesus' life, and this person (who did actually exist) had really useful things to say. If those guidelines are followed, the rest of the myths/stories/predictions of the end of the world etc can be seen for what they are.

I have a sneaking suspicion we all actually may agree with each other more than we realize.

"In Athens which is the capital of Greece there are 200,000 Muslims but they are not being allowed to build a single Mosque. In Sweden it is legal to build a strip bar but it is illegal for a mosque to have a Minaret ! Similarly in many cities in Greece it is illegal for Muslims to bury their dead ! They have to take the dead bodies either outside Greece or to the region of Thrace where burying a dead Muslim is not a crime."

Syed, the reason for this is that they want to build the mosque near the airport, a decision opposed by the strong Greek orthodox church. It is not illegal to bury muslims in Greece, what applies is that the greek orthodox church might refuse to bury non greek orthodoxs, but I see no reason why you might want this. There is a muslim minority in Greece that enjoys the same rights and has the same responsibilities as the Christians.

Don't blame the Greeks they have suffered 400 years of oppression by the Ottomans during which many were forced to convert to Islam

Eddie, the muslims are not anti-science at all "matey", in fact it was the muslim scholars that kept the Greek philosophy and scientific approaches alive during the dark ages (when Europe was relying on alchemists), muslim doctors (eg. Avicenna, Averroes), mathematicians and astronomers contributed a lot to modern science.