I support your campaign to have Israel's present-day policies discussed, Johann. However, you're taking-on the New World Order thugs when you do so. The British Government is in cahoots with them to the nth degree. Individuals who challenge what the NWO don't want revealed end up dead - like David Kelly.

I suggest Melanie Phillips to read ' THE POWER OF ISRAEL IN THE UNITED STATES' BY James Petras and also 'The Israel Lobby and U. S. Foreign Policy' by John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt. Both books are an eye opener. And how about the book by Ex U. S. President Jimmy Carter - 'Palestine - Peace Not Aparthied' Melanie. Johann Hari balances his views on both sides - those who are Anti-Semites, and Palestinians who are victims of Occupation and undergoing Human Rights Abuses by the Occupying Power - Israel on Occupied Land, which was forcefully captured in the 1967 war. Johann, no matter how much you engage with "an obvious nutter" as "Mad Mel" she will always to have negative views and will continue with her lies.

'The disproportionate use of various mouthpieces, organisations and technologies - such as GIYUS (Give Israel Your Uncritical Support) software for blogging (see wikipedia) - in the media to discourage criticism of Israel is allegedly part of a a PR offensive by the state to nullify its critics'

posed the cynic

'you can build a wall around a land BUT you can't build a wall around the truth'

I'd just like to say that I obviously abhor the blatant anti-Semitism of a few of the posters above; that is precisely what I am arguing against.

Looking for balance? These comments are absurd. Jews of all ethnicities have lived in the Middle East for thousands of years. In 1947 Israel accepted the partition plan while the Arab League surrounded the Israel and invaded. Over 850,000 Jewish refugees were forced from their homes, leaving with the clothes on their backs from countries including Iraq, Syria, Iran ect. These people and their ancestors were taken in by the Jewish state and granted full rights and citizenship. In 1967 3 Arab nations surrounded the tiny state and threatened to annihilate it.
This after Jordan controlled what is now Judea and Sumeria from 1948-67. Learn your history. The original partition plan at the turn of the century included the nation now called Jordan as a homeland for Palestinian Arabs. 60% of Jordan is Palestinian. Yet they have not been allowed citizenship and full rights. Any discussion on the right of return must include reparations to those Jews, who out numbered displaced Palestinians. I have no issue calling you an anti semite as the attempted elimination of Jews from all over the world continues today. You, whether just ignorant or an old fashioned Jew Hater, are supporting those who openly express their desire to finish what Hitler couldn't!

There are several types of anti semitism. The Islamist movement has it's roots deeply intertwined with Nazi movement and as is proven the Mufti of jerusalem was an ally of the Nazi's. They used the Protocals and Mein Kampf as evidence of Jewish conspiracy and world domination. His biased view against Israel and his defense of those who call openly in their charters for the destruction of Israel makes him either ignorant to the historical realities or an Anti Semite. Johann Hari in supporting people who openly call for the extermination of the Jewish homeland and is complicit in this Islamist anti semitism

Then there are the good old fashioned European anti semites who were complicit in the extermination of six million Jews by Hitler. This anti semitism is hundreds and hundreds of years old as is proven by the pogroms and the crimes against Jews throughout Europe. These were mostly Christians and later Communists. His defense of Jews against this branch of jew hatred does not exonerate him from my claim.

What about the rest of my previous post? Why have Arabs used Palestinians as pawns in their own internal power struggle for the last century? Why hasn't the world paid attention to the 850,000 Jewish refugees and demanded right of return for them?

Hmmm, Steveoh I do now my history, so I know that the state of Israel was created by bloodshed, violence and terrorism, not by Islamists but by Zionists.

Or will you deny that or explain it away as 'justified', because it was justified by to bomb the King David hotel, and butcher British soldiers - who I might add where liberators just years before, but that doesn't matter does it as the end justifies the means doesn't it.

The hate that spews in your post makes you identical to the Islamists.

But then again thats the point isn't it, Zionist are the same as Islamist just their religions are different. Zionist believe themselves supior to all other, as they are 'God's chosen people' right? Isn't that what Islamists also claim?

Your posts have proven my point, all violence and hate can achieve is more violence and hate. Jews kill Christians so Christians kill Jews, Muslims kill Jews so Jews kill Muslim. This cycle must be broken, which isn't possible until someone takes a stand and says no more.

Khyxon,
Where may I ask is all this hatred in my comments? There is absolutely no moral equivalence that can be drawn in modern times between Islamists and Zionists. Firstly the entire middle east was carved up by the western powers after the fall of the Ottoman empire and of course after WWII. The UN declared Israel a sovereign state in the partition plan. The Jews of Israel accepted and the Palestinian Arabs and their neighbors chose all out war.

Why do you think the UN granted Israel it's own state. Read Theodore Herzel and learn about why the Jews needed a homeland for Jews to escape the persecution they faced for thousands of years.

Zionism is not only a religious movement. I myself am a secular humanist and a zionist. The social Zionism movement was written and agreed to by Men and Women around the world. Islamism on the other hand preaches extremism TODAY as the norm. It seeks to suppress the rights of women, free speech and replace it with Sharia law. Honor killings, religious and individual freedoms are stripped away.

Israel, without a drop of oil is one of the most powerful economies per capita in tthe world. How? They are a modern democratic capitalist nation that is responsible for some of the most incredible technological advances in Science, medicine and Computer technology. Why? They use their minds to forward civilization, not set it back to the 7th century as the Islamists would have it.

You see there is religious freedom in Israel. Yet a non muslim is forbidden to even drive on certain roads in Saudi Arabia.

Finally I must emphasize I speak of the Islamists, not all muslims. Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Muslim Brotherhood and the supporters of this radical ideology.

No, this is the nonsense to which I refer. Nothing I have stated is false. He excuses Hamas and it's actions and blatantly places blame on Israel

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-israel-is-suppressing-a-secret-it-must-face-816661.html

Steveoh, please answer my questions. If he was "complicit in this Islamist anti semitism", why would he go on the Islam Channel to oppose it, and receive death threats? If he supported Islamist attempts to destroy Israel, why would he write articles like the one linked above explicitly condemning it and proposing ways to stop it happening?

The answer is in one article he shows a reasonable understanding of the challenges in combating Islamic fundamentalism. In the other he sides with the Islamist Hamas movement by stating...
"This weekend, the elected Hamas government offered a six-month truce that could have led to talks. The Israeli government responded within hours by blowing up a senior Hamas leader and killing a 14-year-old girl."

This, without a mention of the daily firing of rockets and mortars by Hamas and their own sabotage of aid entering Gaza to further their propaganda machine, shows a clear bias. Therein lies his complicity.

Isn't that what a cease fire is, a stopping of current violence? There could be no ceasefire if there wasn't already ongoing violence.

Now, I agree with the hesitance of agreeing to such a ceasefire as I do not doubt that Hamas would not keep the agreement and would use it to rearm and consolidate their position. Then again there could have been no Good Friday agreement, resolving the problems in Northern Ireland, without the British government agreeing to a ceasefire with the IRA, which they broke twice.

The question is what is best for the people of Israel, including those living in Ashkelon and Sderot under Hamas guns, and the Palestinians. Israel can not just hide behind the security barrier and hope everything will be ok. For Israel's long term prosperity they must find a way of stopping the violence on both sides.

As for the 850,000 Jews displaced by Arab Nations, how many Arabs were displaced by the creation of the state of Israel and the continuous violence ever since. See that's my point about violence only lead to more violence. How many Christians have been displaced because of American action in the Middle East?

As for Israel's long term prosperity, see my earlier posts about the economic success of Israel despite the world's ire. To loosely quote Thomas Friedman "The Arab world must overcome it's humiliation of it's numerous defeats to Israel and start focusing on bettering their societies from the inside out. They have to learn to love their own more than they hate the Jews." An I think that's a long time coming.

So for there to be peace then it can only happen with the destruction of the Palestinian territories by them being consumed by larger counties, that doesn't sound hypocritical. Also if Israel was to override the democratic will of the Palestinians then it will be a undermine efforts to bring democracy to the wider Middle East.

Anyway, Steveoh I do agree with you that Hamas can't be trusted but Israel invading would not help the situation. Look at the Lebanon, what did last summers invasion achieve. An embolden Hezbollah that is now beginning its power play for complete control.

The ugly tide of Islamist violence has been aided by the actions of Israel. Carrying out group punishment only helps them in their cause by recruiting more people to carry out their ultimately goals.

Yes, there is a long history of antisemitism in Islam but it is the modern images of the dead from Gaza and the West Bank that is their best recruiting sergeant.

But as I said, this thread is meant to be about the boundaries of civilized discussion and not the rights and wrongs of the Israeli/ Palestinian issue. Nor was it meant as an attack on the state of Israel itself, which Johann, myself and others who have posted here, believe should continue to exist.

Your dogged determination try to call Johann an anti-Semite only succeeds in turning people against you, and in turn, Israel itself.

But then it's easier to belittle and distort than admit that you might be wrong, even on something as small as mistakenly calling someone something they are not, or has the definition of anti-Semite been extended to include someone who doesn't wholesale support Israel and turn a blind eye to everything it does.

"because they know that if they don’t ‘balance’ any discussion of Israel/Palestine between one person – like Jimmy Carter – stating the simple facts"

Simple "facts" ?
If you really believe he wrote the simple facts then you are either one of two types of people. An ignoramus who wouldn't know a fact from a lie, or an anti Semite and plenty of those can be seen right here posting away as if they are only "honest critics of Israel"

And you others would have those on this side shut up when we hear or read what these bigots say under the guise of being honest critics?

Sorry, but those days when up in the smoke of the crematoria forever.

These people just prove OUR point how so many who criticize Israel aren't really criticizing at all but through the use of their very much reinvented distortion of what they claim "Zionism" is (it IS NOT) we ALL know who they're really after.

For those who are indeed honestly criticizing Israel, perhaps it might suit the debate better for YOU to shut these bigots up so we Jews and Israel supporters don't have to. Someone needs to do it and since most of the honest and well intentioned people unable or unwilling to bother, perhaps you agree with them ? Perhaps you see as we all do the rank anti Semitism above and yet only Hari posted anything about here.

I am so tired of hearing this same argument that we Israel supporters are shutting down all crticism by accusing the critics of Anti Semitism before anyone says a single word. The shutting down is this claim that is first made often followed by a spewing of Jew hatred and lies believing he's inoculated himself against anyone accusing him of spewing hatred.

Once again I simply point to the posters that Hari points out and ask ... why didn't any of you "honest" Israel critics bother to post to the bashers to STFU and make it clear they don't represent you? Is it because they may ?

And finally just so we all have it straight about Carter's so called "facts" - there are so many deceptions and lies in the book - far too many to mention here, but for the sale of my post - here's just one problem

he asserts that the initial violence in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict occurred when "Jewish militants" attacked Arabs in 1939. The long history of Palestinian terrorism against Jews — which began in 1929, when the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem ordered the slaughter of more than 100 rabbis, students, and non-Zionist Sephardim whose families had lived in Hebron and other ancient Jewish cities for millennia — was motivated by religious bigotry. The Jews responded to this racist violence by establishing a defense force. There is no mention of the long history of Palestinian terrorism before the occupation, or of the Munich massacre and others inspired byYasser Arafat. There is not even a reference to the Karine A, the boatful of terrorist weapons ordered by Arafat in January 2002.

Finally. Remotely balanced states exactly what I stated in my first post. I merely said Hari was either ignorant of the facts or an old fashioned jew hater. His support of Hamas in his editorial is in fact support for that group and if so, why? This is why I found it necessary to question his motives in the first place. I wonder if those who agree with this kind of "journalism" realize fully who they are in bed with.

Finally the modern images of Anti semitism throughout the Arab world are horrific. The Protocals of the Elders of Zion as a mini series. Hamas' Mickey Mouse killing jews. The fundamentalist indoctrination isn't because of Israel, it's become a part of the fabric of Arab society.

Anti-Semitism masks as anti-Zionism when it is characterized by a demonization of Israel, racist caricatures, conspiratorial overtones and depictions of the Holocaust as both the precursor of the “Zionist entity” and a point of comparison (i.e. comparing Jews with Nazis). Those who make these claims, often with references to apartheid and ethnic cleansing, do not seek to criticize Israel but to demonize it as a fascist regime in order to justify its destruction.
On the far Left there is a strange infatuation with the Jewish State, so much so that Israel is routinely demonized. Perversely the silence of the Left with regard to unequivocally racist regimes is odious.

Please, people, do not assume that (a) "Israel" (b) "the zionists" and (c) "the lobby" are all identical in their views, intentions, programmes, or needs. It makes much more sense, morally, factually, and tactically, to assume that the inhabitants of Israel are victims of a deliberately offensive programme driven by the military-industrial complexes of their own country and the USA. There is a detailed, book-length study, in english, which deals among other things with how the standard of living of ordinary Israelis has been drastically reduced, and basic social provisions cut or axed completely, over the last couple of decades, as their economy has shifted further and further into militarisation, just like the USA - Nitzan & Bichler, "Political Economy of Israel" on their website - http://bnarchives.yorku.ca/ - as a free pdf download.

By the way, just for Johann's benefit, may I note that most of the contents of the 'Protocols' were originally written as satire (Maurice Joly's "Dialogues in Hell between Machiavelli and Montesquieu"). Satire is dangerous stuff, and suppressing the fact of its origins makes it extra dangerous.

SteveEl you are right on the mark in your last post. Indeed the left is infatuated with the demonization of Israel. This despite the human rights abuses and misogyny of those they tend to protest with.

"What precisely is mad about her?"

Errr.... her denial of global warming, her creationism, her insistence that MMR causes autism in the face of all scientific evidence, her claim that the Palestinians are "artificial" and "a terrorist organisation" and "their cause amounts to Holocaust denial as a national project"... I could go on.

These kinds of talks take us no-where. As far as I remember the Israeli Palestinian issues have always been a hot potato subject. I do admire your brave interest in challenging truth about what is going on there, however, I think we have already many unresolved issues at home that require our immediate attentions first.

"The Palestinians are imprisoned in a literal sense but they are 'free' in psyche, soul and spirit while the Israelis are 'free' in a literal sense but are imprisoned in psyche, soul and spirit, by the lies upon which their society is founded."

I think that's just 'noble savage' type romanticisation, myself, but irrespective of whether it is or not, the question of whether 'the Palestinians' are 'good', 'bad', or 'indifferent' is irrelevant to the question of whether we are being subjected to thought control campaigns, right across the West, by propagandists using the problems of the state of Israel as an emotive pretext for dragging us into a third and nuclear world war, which we are.

Why is we cannot see this for what it is.
This distortion of language.
How is it if you speak of Palestine.
You are classed as Islamic Antisemite
Correct me if I`m wrong:
Are Palestinian Arabs not also Semitic
What we see here is simply a Family Squabble,
which is a Left over Remmant of The Cold War.
Even within Israel itself there is conflicting Ideas
Maybe in time These Children of Abraham may learn to
live in peace and amity.
The Only problem is Israel will have to Disarm It`s Nuclear Potential and learn to live with Palestine,
as Churchill would say Jaw Jaw not War War.

Well said Johann !! I don't live in Blighty any more and it's difficult for me to keep my self clued up about the intricacies of this debate but I have read Londonistan. Phillips' arguments are often constructed on vast helpings of self indulgent delusion with a very lean sprinkling of fact often based on fantasy. Superficially it may seem a slick piece of writing but it is unconvincing for anyone who doesn't share her ideologue agenda.
Keep up the good work & great writing !

I am sure this will sound a bit exaggerated, but, looking back over the pattern that is betrayed by exactly which of my Haaretz comments are permitted, and which not, it becomes rather unpleasantly clear to me that their english language web pages, which are basically the shop window to the anglophone world of the Israeli Labor Party (a member of the Second or Social Democratic International, by the way, like our own Labour Party) have a cosmetic agenda. When they are engaged in a push for war (or rather, a push to legitimise in advance a genocidal air campaign) they don't let anyone spoil the cosmetic effect.

Now, silly me - I said 'genocidal' - that's anti-Semitic.