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Friday, 27 June 2008

Have Your Say: No ice at the North Pole

P1270608 It seems unthinkable, but for the first time in human history, ice is on course to disappear entirely from the North Pole this year. What can be done about accelerated global warming? Let us know what you think.

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If global warming is to blame, then why is the ice on the Antarctic getting thicker each year?

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/2008/may/global.html#seaice

Keep driving your 4x4s mugs. Man is cancer!

So the global warming skeptics were "right" in a sense. Those climate models were just models, and they got it all wrong. Reality is turning out far worse than anyone feared.

IPCC models were predicting Arctic melt-down by the END of this century. Even with the record melt last year, the most "radical" opinion was that it would be the MIDDLE of the century before the North Pole was ice-free. But we are now reaching that tipping point already! Morale: when the scientists are wrong it's usually because they are far too conservative, not because they are too alarmist.

I can only urge that readers take a look at the 350 campaign - see http://www.350.org/understanding-350#1 - which seems to be the only sensible diagnosis of where we now stand, and what we must urgently do next.

Where is your proof that the arctic ice at the North Pole has never melted before in human history? I believe that is a totally unsubstantiated statement. We are in a period of climate change, which means some areas are warmer than before, and some colder. The rise in global temperature has been only 0.8 degree C, over the last 100 years or so. Since 1999 there has been no warming, in fact a slight cooling. This type of sensationalism does you no credit.

Jon:

I had a look at your link but I didn't see any reference to thickness anywhere, extent yes, thickness no. The answer to your question is that global trends are not always reflected locally. For example, enough arctic meltwater might reduce or even shut down the Gulf stream. In that way, a net global warming effect could make Western Europe a colder place, at least until most of the ice was gone. If climatology was a simple subject, it would not have taken all those scientists so many years to produce an inconclusive report would it?

So what? If I fill my G&T to the meniscus, including as many ice cubes as you like, when the ice cubes melt, my G&T does not overflow the rim of the glass. Hence, if the (floating) arctic ice cap melts, it has zero effect on sea level. It really does float, as evidenced by a friend of mine, who drove his submarine under it without bumping in to anything.

I wish the eco-mentalists would realise the gross exaggeration afforded to the presence of CO2 in the atmosphere, especially anthropogenic CO2. 3% of feck all is feck all. Why, why, do they never consider and accept the overwhelming influence of the dominant greenhouse gas, namely, water vapour. Time spent on the science of this, and its release and absorbtion from/by the vast sinks which are the oceans, would be time better spent.

Why is Greenland called Greenland? Because it used to be green. The Vikings farmed there. There are Viking villages beneath the white stuff. Then, the climate changed. All by itself. No power stations, cars, trucks, planes, eco-mentalists or tax-grabbing, feckless, politicians. Nature has a habit of hitting the reset button and giving someone else a chance, roughly every 100,000 years, it seems. Get over it.

Garbage science.

Seems you all missed the French report of new volcanoes in the arctic, seems the ice is melting from the bottom up!

Funny, I didn't see any mention of the recent news that there are volcanoes going nuts under the arctic ice cap. I think, just maybe, there could be a corelation there. Also, knowing that the earth has been, historically, both warmer and colder than right now, can you environmentalist wackos tell us all what the optimum temperature is supposed to be?

Ummm....

Perhaps the editors at the Independent ought to look into recent volcanic activity under the Arctic Ocean instead of reaching for the Anthropromorphic Global Warming bell.

It is documented in the otherwise trusted science journal Nature.

Perhaps some mention of this activity (which produces heat, by the way, which, it turns out, can melt ice) might find its way into future articles, given that this one is fraught with speculation as to what might happen whereas Vulcanologists have recorded the activity mentioned inthe Nature article.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v409/n6822/full/409808a0.html

There seems to be a big variance between the graph in the article and the one on http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.365.jpg
The difference is 1 millon square kilometres so not trivial. The ice cover photos on the same site don't show the claimed open water either.

One notes that they have recently discovered an undersea volcano in the Arctic that has erupted within the last 10 years. Did this have an effect on icemelt?

Just who do we believe?

How come Manhatten and Florida aren't submerged.

They told us when the ice melted people would die everywhere?

Wow - then NYC should be under water according to Al Gore. Something isn't adding up. Do you suppose the water is going somewhere else - like ANTARTICA?

Still waiting for the cause for the warming of Mars and Venus during the past decade. Sun cycles perhaps?

This is ridiculous. Do the people who make these claims actually research anything? Right now the temperatures in the arctic are far LOWER than they usually are at this time of year. As low as -30 degrees, in fact. It's this intense cold that's sparking the large number of tornadoes in the US (since, remember, storms like that are formed by clashing of cold air from the north and warm air from the south).

And last time I checked, ice didn't melt at -30 degrees.

Show me the satellite image from space that demonstrates this. You never see any imaging to support their claims.

Sorry gents, NASA photos show otherwise. Don't believe everything you read in so called "newspapers"

The first time in human history? Really? Not even during the Medieval Warm Period when Greenland was named because it was actually Green?

>"If it happens, it raises the prospect of the Arctic nations being able to exploit the valuable oil and mineral deposits below these a bed which have until now been impossible to extract because of the thick sea ice above."< This is a bad thing??? I am sick of being told that being human and using the resources of OUR planet is a bad thing.

LIARS! The temperature never stays the same ALL the time! You're all a bunch of socialist/Marxist/communists trying to pry our freedom one step at a time! al-Gore is a fraud who is making MILLIONS of DOLLARS off this scam!

People have NO EFFECT on the temperature! Use your heads! The Earth's temperature changes ALL THE TIME!!!

FRAUDS! LIARS! COMMUNISTS!

This is another cynical Global Warmer's setup. The odds are already 1 in 10 at any given time in the average summer that there will be open water at the North Pole, so all they need do is wait until a polnya forms there and then scream "GLOBAL WARMING the sky is falling give us more power over your lives" - power for themselves being what the Coercive Utopians desire. For numerous pictures of subs surfaced in open water at the Pole search Google images for 'submarine "north pole" '.

infernumflame

Unfortunately, when the ice is covered with snow you get a blanket of insulation from the atmospheric temperature. Add a volcano below and the water warms which has the potential to melt the ice.

Now all that the intrepid journalists at the Independent have to do is prove that man has caused these volcanic eruptions and *blamo* Gore gets another prize.

Maybe they ought to send out one of their many erudite science journalist to prove the point - like Robert Fisk. Perhaps George Bush ate too many pork rinds and pissed off Gaia, causing her to have a "meltdown" of sorts.

"for the first time in human history"---this assertion is staggering in its audacity. there were no measurements taken of polar ice millions of years ago.
stop insulting your readers' intelligence.

Josephus, Yes I did see that report. Giant volcanos I believe is what they said. But, that would be an inconvenient truth to actually really state what is going on since it does not fit the eco-wackos agenda

This story is pure fabrication. Enough of this idiotic science.

Ummmmm...has anyone been paying attention in the last two days?? There are volcanoes erupting under the north pole ice caps. But, this fact has been conveniently ignored by the "pro global warming" media. Please use your heads instead of going along with the hysteria.

You give reasons why it's a good thing (newfound access to oil and mineral reserves) and yet you ask me to worry. I think you have an unstated ulterior motive in the presentation of your story...

If we are warming then WHY are the average temperatures in Alaska between 10 and 20 degrees BELOW normal this year? Most areas have had no spring and summer is going past in a cold way.
Reality should trump politics.

If all the ice has melted, why aren't we 4 feet underwater, that's what Al Gore told me would happen!

I marvel at the "Oh wow - NONE of this stuff has ever happened before" for every natural, cyclical phenomenon that happens on Earth. The Man - Made Global Warming crowd loves to ignore data that shows nature in control and going through cycles and spread their Gobbledygook (scientific term) to any Country they can convince to feel guilty. They hold on to every word uttered by the biggest carbon hypocrite - the 21st century's Darwin - Al Gore; whom just as they forget about Earth's past Warming / cooling cycles - they forget that he is NOT a scientist nor expert in Climate - HE IS A POLITICIAN!!

Phil

Now, now.

Just because the vikings called it Greenland and recorded grape vines growing in modern Newfoundland, you are forgetting one thing:

Eric the Red et al lacked the proper government grants to support their research and it therefore must be thrown out.

So sorry.

Sounds like another big steaming shovelful.

I find it rather strange that an email I received today with real and fake pictures from around the world contained the picture of the setting sun and moon from the north pole on the Drudge Report headline. The pictures stated that this was a "fake" picture". Do you really believe people are to buy into your theories about global warming with this kind of deception. You want to see real global warming....just wait until the Lord returns.

My thoughts exactly, Jeff. Maybe it's a big nudge from God (or whatever higher power you may or may not believe in) to tell us to quit being so stupid, and use the resources we've been given.

I wish people would remember that, in geological terms, the last ice age is just ending. The warming isn't unusal. The Earth has periodic cold spells (ice ages) then warms. We must also consider precession, which is the way the Earth rotates on its axis, like a top spinning. At maximum precession we experience more extreme seasons and harsher winters. At minimum precession (when the earth is tilted 0 degrees) we have a tropical, jungle, planet. The earth is now retreating from maximum (toward minimum) precession. Please see the wikipedia example of precession here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession

Geologically speaking, the Earth is a tropical planet, not one covered with ice. This climate change is both natural and beneficial to life here.

By the way, whatever happened to that growing hole in the ozone layer that was supposed to fry us like bacon by now?

This is the best news I've heard all summer.
Congrats to all.

Now I'll only have to burn 50 of my 100 tires this year.

Have a great Summer All!!!

Only a global elite managing a global government, unto which we submit our wealth and freedom can save us from global warming. Panic now.

Really? First year ice versus second year ice? I better check my first year grass versus second year grass in my first year front yard that was the previous owners' fifth year grass depending on how you measure the wind in a teacup on a full moon, but only on second Wednesdays of first year months in odd years that have preceding days of early frost on third year leap years with late frost in shadows of morning sunshine..not evening sunsets which all expert scientists agree would change everything. I'm worried...perhaps beach holidays at the North Pole are already booked.

So, the sensationalist headline "Exclusive: No Ice At The North Pole" translates to "Seasoned polar scientists believe the chances of a totally ice-free North Pole this summer are
greater than 50:50"

Terrible journalism. Has Al Gore been popping into the office?

Come on Independent, you're better than this.

This is pure scare talk. Go to Cryosphere Today to see what is happening to the ice at both poles. Here's the url:

And just what do you propose to do about it?

Stop spending money? Stop families from growing? Stop economic from expanding? Curtail the third world?

Get real.

I wonder if journalists miss their credibility; or is it a relief to shed such cumbersome and unnecessary baggage? And they wonder why the 4th estate is loathed.

Regarding "God causing warming" I have to depart from my fellow skeptics.

The science can stand on its own without divine intervention.

Fact: the Earth has been warmer.
Fact: the Sun heats the Earth.
Fact: the Sun is very quiet these days, conforming to a cyclic pattern observed over centuries.
Fact: the Sun was quite active a decade ago when we were posting record global high temps.
Fact: the Earth has actually cooled in the last 10 years based on our best measurements, as one might expect when a solar minimum occurs.

Another fact is that water vapor is far more prevalent in the atmosphere and contributes vastly more "greenhouse effects" in terms of insulation than C02.

But there is no arguing with people who are paid to propagate a theory in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And politicians are only more than willing to pay the theorists more because fear generates votes.

Dorothy:

It has always been within your power to have the world you seek...

Simply click your heels together 10,000 times, each time saying, "The earth is warming...The earth is warming...The earth is warming"

You have a little geologic research to do. Check out Robert Sohn of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution. There are massive volcanoes rising from the seafloor under the Arctic. Multiple eruptions, larger then the one that buried Pompeii are dumping substantial thermal energy into the Arctic Ocean. More thermal energy than millions of SUVs could ever achieve in a lifetime.

Glad to see lots of intelligent, skeptical comments here. And I agree with them all. To add another point, I quote from the article: "[T]he normally thick ice formed over many years at the Pole has been blown away and replaced by huge swathes of thinner ice formed over a single year." What does "The thick ice has been blown away" mean? Has it disappeared, or has it "relocated" nearby?

I discovered the Global warming problem. We need to get rid of the state of California.
("The fact is that when you have that many fires - and there are still 700 fires left all over the state of California - you get stretched thin with the resources," Schwarzenegger said.
The state's largest fire scorched more than 92 square miles and destroyed two homes. The blaze, sparked by a campfire on June 8, was about 71 percent contained.) In the last 10 years, California has dumped more carbon into the atmosphere than all the cars ever invented.. Maybe we could float it to the North Pole and pour some of that cold ice water on it..

So seeing as NYC isnt submerged like we were all warned, I figured I could get some of you to worry about the next danger that is going to wipe out mankind. Global shrinking. Thats right. The Earth is shrinking because evil, cancerous man is pounding it down more and more every day. We keep eating all this grease and getting fatter and driving these big SUV's and building these huge, heavy buildings and it is making the Earth shrink. Pretty soon, the Earth will spin out of orbit and we will be eaten alive by our own sun. There is a bunch of scientific evidence of this. Although no measure has ever been taken in history, we can say with near certainty that the Earth is smaller today than it ever has been in history.
Now. You can stop it if you act now. I will sell you heaviness credits. I am skinny and I ride a bike everywhere. So you can eat as much as you want or drive a big car as long as you pay me to offset your extra weight.

And what about the ice at the South Pole that has been thickening and expanding? When will the Indy do an article on that? Overall ice mass on the combined north and south poles is increasing. Does IPCC predict that?

I'll believe in AGW when Al Gore's carbon footprint is less than the average American's instead of 20 times as large.

What a load of bull squeeze. Temperatures have been falling since 1998 and in 2007 the average global temp dropped .7 degrees C. The larges single year swing ever recorded. Last winter there were reports of record ice pack in the artic. Get a grip Owl Bore. The world isn't burning up.

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